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Senshi
November 20th, 2017, 06:56 PM
http://tournament.realitymod.com/images/c13resources/logos/c13logo_header.png
PRT Campaign 13
Nuijamaa


VOG have won their first battle, and what a battle it was. Both teams set out with relatively centralised deployments, with some light early aggression from both sides resulting in no real gain. Eventually VOG performed a strong skirmish operation in the back of RPX frontline to disrupt supplies and FOBs. While this had little immediate impact on the stable RPX frontline, it allowed VOG to follow up with another encirclement, wreaking havoc among the RPX line, leading to the flag and the surrounding area being mostly cleared. RPX reacted quickly to this, forcing a quick offensive on the flag to retake a foothold near the flag, barely preventing VOG from raising their own banner. As VOG had no time to fortify their positions, and with the strategically important flag a valuable boon for both teams, they had to commit just as much as RPX now. This led to over a half hour of intense close quarters infantry fighting, with no clearly discernable front line . Neither side can truly say they won that fight but with reinforcements running low, RPX managed to barely retake their lost flag to secure those extra 25 points on the scoreboard.

RESULT
http://tournament.realitymod.com/images/c13resources/announcements/score_screen_b2.png (http://tournament.realitymod.com/index.php?page=status&operation=2)
PR Tracker Replay (http://tournament.realitymod.com/prt_mods/tracker/?demo=files/c13_b2.PRdemo#1)
Score Screen (http://tournament.realitymod.com/images/c13resources/announcements/b2_scoreboard.png)


http://tournament.realitymod.com/images/c13resources/threadheaders/battlecycle.png

https://i.imgur.com/s8xd40v.png (http://tournament.realitymod.com/index.php?page=faq#f11.3)

We journey back to good ol' Saaremaa, an all time classic!

Date: 02nd of December 2017
Time: Battle start 20:00 PRT
Server Password: Announced 19:45 PRT
Map: Saaremaa AAS ALT
Teams: USMC (RPX) vs RU (VOG)
No-Go Zone Rules: Click Here (http://tournament.realitymod.com/showthread.php?t=34276#f1)


http://www.realitymod.com/mapgallery/images/maps/saaremaa/mapoverview_gpm_cq_32.jpg (http://tournament.realitymod.com/mapviewer/?map=saaremaa)


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OutlawGunner
November 20th, 2017, 07:58 PM
Oh we definitely won that battle...Nuff said

hairyballs
November 20th, 2017, 09:35 PM
"Neither side can truly say they won that fight"
https://i.imgur.com/aaCcsqJ.jpg

Akiba101
November 20th, 2017, 09:38 PM
Neither side can truly say they won that fight


Yes they can, VOG won.

Filamu
November 20th, 2017, 09:46 PM
It's when you can't truly say you won, that the weakest say they did.

Akiba101
November 20th, 2017, 10:34 PM
It's when you can't truly say you won, that the weakest say they did.

Oh wow thats so insightful, you learned us so hard Filamu senpai.

CAS_ual_TY
November 20th, 2017, 10:56 PM
^ dis is why I joined the prt

Philrow
November 20th, 2017, 10:56 PM
Akiba get out of here with your anime shit

Alexswesnipr
November 21st, 2017, 09:08 AM
"Neither side can truly say they won that fight"


I think what he means that even you flanked us TWICE around the flag area we were still fighting over it when the battle ended. aka apart from tickets no one truly won that fight. Not the battle itself.

Senshi
November 21st, 2017, 09:54 AM
Reading comprehension :D .

The last sentence clearly is about just the forest flag fight, which also just as clearly was a messy brawl for both sides. VOG came out of it with less ticket losses, but didn't achieve their objective of capturing and stabilizing a new frontline around the flag.

That's all it says :) .

Raidonrai
November 21st, 2017, 10:52 AM
Wanted to let them fight it out a bit more before clarifying tbh

Senshi
November 21st, 2017, 11:50 AM
Plenty of amusement already provided here :D .

Vista
November 21st, 2017, 03:30 PM
People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That is how they define "Reality". But what does it mean to be "correct" or "true"? They are merely vague concepts... Their "Reality" may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to be simply living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?

Zrix
November 21st, 2017, 04:12 PM
People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That is how they define "Reality". But what does it mean to be "correct" or "true"? They are merely vague concepts... Their "Reality" may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to be simply living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs?
Yea, I guess one could consider reality, as two cones.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/72/DoubleCone.png/1200px-DoubleCone.png

Pink_Panther
November 21st, 2017, 05:09 PM
Wow, I didn't expect that much fair play. I guess I must be new to pr. As far as I am concerned, the last 3 battles looked like dumb massacres, is it like this all the time ?

Akiba101
November 21st, 2017, 09:34 PM
Wow, I didn't expect that much fair play. I guess I must be new to pr. As far as I am concerned, the last 3 battles looked like dumb massacres, is it like this all the time ?

RPX can you put your retard back in his cage please?

We had a gentleman's agreement, if I'm not allowed out more than once per battlecycle then neither is he.

Regards

Akibabababa

hector21
November 22nd, 2017, 03:28 AM
3-1 btw

OutlawGunner
November 22nd, 2017, 06:09 AM
3-1 btw

Obviously, this is your first tournament. Just remember prep battles are just that they don't count up to anything :D

hector21
November 22nd, 2017, 06:29 AM
I'm glad VOG won, otherwise we might have had the first team scramble in the PRT.

Pink_Panther
November 22nd, 2017, 10:20 AM
RPX can you put your retard back in his cage please?

We had a gentleman's agreement, if I'm not allowed out more than once per battlecycle then neither is he.

Regards

Akibabababa

Oh, well I am so sorry Akibrah. I do not recall having called you a retard in the past, or maybe my simple presence is disturbing your sense of dignity ?
While were at it, I would like to make a special commendation for your team's insightfull management in the recruitement of PRTA members. Trully flawless I might say. Amazing ! Its gonna be great ! They all my friends.

Cossack
November 22nd, 2017, 11:41 AM
https://m.popkey.co/54e5d6/ZmL17.gif

Jizzco
November 22nd, 2017, 11:42 AM
It's happening!!!

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

Michael_Denmark
November 22nd, 2017, 02:51 PM
Yea, I guess one could consider reality, as two cones.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/72/DoubleCone.png/1200px-DoubleCone.png

The binary view certainly is rigid, I agree. And probably quite common in the military world of thought. But I still think it serves a purpose in these forums, when addressing Manúuvre thinking to attrition minded teams. Not placing my self out of that loop here. I sadly played most my PRT battles as an attritionalist. Not turning back from that, okay

Manúuvre Warfare really is difficult to master. It require the ability to not only think out of the box, but hm, almost inventing a new box, every single foxtrot time.

Also, lets not forget that most wars in real life, are wars of attrition. The war in Syria, perhaps as the latest example of the stupidity of man. However, not the stupidity of business. Lots of money in attrition. Every bullet a product with a price.

Whenever you find a nation, or an alliance, constantly focusing on Tactics and Technology, always remember the background for this focus; a lack of thinking in Manúuvre Warfare.

General Giap (Vietnam), being the most important general since Napoleon Bonaparte, totally mastered Manúuvre Warfare. He even refused package after package from China, you know, tanks, trucks and what have you of the usual tech stuff. Because as a Manúuvre Thinker, General Giap understood that these factors, would only turn his army into a dwarf of the French and US army. He understood, that in order to win against them, he had to find that new box, outside the box. And so, he found it and with his Tet offensive as the peak of this type of thinking, he brought the world of Manúuvre thinking onto a new level. His peak-offensive had two part objectives;

the first was to defeat the US home front. A front that both the French and US leadership had not identified, as a real military front. Giaps offensive succesed, in capturing this front.

the second part objective, was to take as many losses as possible. Because the militia units, participating in Giaps Tet offensive, where mostly of a different political view than in the communist north. Hence, to get rid of this internal political element, was considered necessary. This in order to win the peace, after the defeat of the foreigners; France/US/Others.

So a very brutal strategy that also proofed very efficient too. Because Vietnam succeeded, through superior thinking, versus superior firepower.

In that rigid image I used, the Tv-front would be the punctuation, passing through two conventional patterns of thinking.

Long reply here, I apologise.

BTW, Webcole, he did not participate, or what? I got this instant feeling of importance, when I searched for his position on the RPX side. Couldn't find him?

Pink_Panther
November 22nd, 2017, 03:05 PM
Very instructive, yes. Can you get in our team ?

Aleon
November 22nd, 2017, 03:10 PM
I think I'm losing track of who's trolling. and who's being an actual retard.

mectus11
November 22nd, 2017, 03:12 PM
Please sign up for RPX, they need you.

Filamu
November 22nd, 2017, 03:19 PM
Webcole was away for the battle, as his importantness was required somewhere else. RL would not feel as important without him.

Michael_Denmark
November 23rd, 2017, 01:51 PM
OK, so he is still on the team. My feeling was related to the tournament.

Anyhow, I enjoyed the battle replay. Because RPX pretty much did what VOG did on Yamalia; starting out with a reach and capture of an important flag, before the opponent did. All this Riam Pax completed in only 5 minutes, from round start. Hence, attack momentum enabled. That with a strong concentration, counting circa 20 infantry and 1 VAB. Not forgetting a FOB positioned already too.

So at this point my reaction was; beautiful executed! including both speed and strength in first move. So now we just need the surprise. I was set up for the second RPX push, in force, with that concentration, to the south, across the main road, with the axis of advance following the side road. This in order to increase pressure on the VOG center. I mean, Filamu's squad had already tried to make the push/ambush/delaying action on the Left RPX flank. So a second Center push with this much stronger force, could have kept the pressure up on VOG, thereby not handing over the RPX created initiative, to this always assault hungry team.

Looking at the situation at precisely 03:55:00, I think this RPX push could have captured the Western part of the VOG Center. Thereby threatening to divide the VOG Main Battle Line. A threat that in it self would have been enough to bring the coming VOG assault out of balance.

https://i.imgur.com/BSUDzwz.jpg

But what happened instead, was that RPX command did the same as the VOG command did on Yamalia; it stopped its own successful created momentum. Stopped it fairly deep onto the map too. This stop thereby created a new situation, which invited VOG to attempt to use the envelope or encircle method.

With VOG now taking over the initiative, the battle developed pretty much into the same pattern, as we saw in the previous battles:


a fluid front with a lot of dynamic reaction-fighting
the main bulk of the two opposing forces all allocated to a restricted boxing ring, made out by a flag zone.


However, this type of fighting was in this, the second battle of Campaign 13, much better organised and coordinated. From both sides that is. It involved speed and attempts in both flank, rear and front. Much stronger rear and flank attempts from the Vanguard Operations Group, though, also winning its first battle, with the second largest ticket lead, since the first preparation battle on Dovre.

Clearly Vanguard Operations Group has completed its first learning curve of how to perform the assault on a fairly static defender. If you doubt me, please watch the previous assaults, from Dovre to Nuijamaa.

Congratulations to Vanguard Operations Group! You made it.

Riam Pax did put up a hell of a defense though. And not only that, it also presented a remarkably result at round start. An ambush on the banks of the Nuijamaa river, involving both Filamu's and Robermani's squads, from here on mentioned as Filamu's squad. Lets take a closer look at this RPX beauty.

https://i.imgur.com/W7rvSX7.jpg

Hm, maybe not the best explanation on that image above. Ill try again.


Idea: Harassing the attacking team in its flank

From a psychological point of view, the attacking personality has less patience than the defending type. So if the defender can frustrate the attacker enough, it should degrade the attackers ability to coordinate and organize.

The idea is for the defending team, to bring the attacking team out of balance, so its ability to concentrate its force for envelopment's or encirclements, is degraded. The criteria's for this type of mission, based on what Filamus' unit achieved with Bana_joe's unit, are as follows:

1. Timing
The harassing unit should only haras while the attacking team is concentrating its main force, on a "magnet" target, like for instance the contested flag zone at Nuijamaa Forest Farms.

2. Location
The location picked for the harassing mission, should either directly or indirectly threaten the flank or rear of the attacking team. Like for instance as the river location Filamu's unit used.

3. Distance to the main enemy strength
In terms of distance the location picked, also has to be far enough away from the main concentration of the attacking team. Otherwise this will be able to intervene directly against the harassing unit.

4. Losses
In order to reduce looses for the harasser, Hit and Run tactic should be the preferred tactical method. Especially when coordinating with heavy support fire, as from Bana_joe's mortars. The focus of the harassing unit should be to ambush, but not to fight. This also means the harassing unit should leave the area again, after either having taken out a limited amount of enemy tickets, or identifying an enemy attempt to destroy it.

If the kill rate criteria equals what Filamu and Bana_Joe achieved in that short ambush of theirs, then the defending Riam Pax team, would need a maximum of 8 of these missions. THat in order to nullify the 58 tickets, VOG had at round end.

5. Flank and or Rear security
The harassing unit should aim to have at least a thin flank or rear security

fecht_niko
November 24th, 2017, 05:21 PM
Yeah and I'm not allowed to SL ingame

Hunter2
November 24th, 2017, 11:53 PM
That's a good thing

Michael_Denmark
November 25th, 2017, 12:53 PM
BTW; are both teams constructing obstacles in the battles?

Filamu
November 25th, 2017, 01:12 PM
Obstacles?

Pink_Panther
November 25th, 2017, 01:44 PM
Nope, they aren't. They just like line battles.

Obstacles which means strategic areas the team has to get rid off before being able to push and move on.
In this game it would include a FOB that blocks communication points or/and an avant-guarde squad attracting the enemy forces attention, in best case disrupting their lines. This means a heavily armed possibly entrenched squad acting as a sponge ready to suffer heavy supression and working to get the least casualties as possible :
That means avant guarde.

Filamu
November 25th, 2017, 02:04 PM
While all of that sounds really nice, it has a big problem in game. We can spawn all our troops at the front lines, choppers can fly over AA ++, and we aren't fighting over strategic areas, just random flags in weird places. Unless you are on a flag, there is no areas the enemy has to get rid off, they can just bypass you.

Friado
November 25th, 2017, 03:08 PM
Hey Michal_Denmark and Pink_Panther I invite you both to play the actual game! Actually playing the game would give some great insight why certain things work or not. Man clicking M1 more accurately than other guy might not be that deep in every situation.

Pink_Panther
November 25th, 2017, 03:23 PM
There is more to a map then just flags. Most of the time flags will be in shitty areas, so it is always preferrable to draw away the fight from the flag and/or take positions that prevent enemy from even see or set a foot in the flag area.

Try and identify how a battle would go without these said flags. Which positions will be taken, what areas would you not want enemy to take over ect...

Now this all seems pretty obvious, but to make things clearer in practice, I will illustrate 2 maps that bring this in example very well :
Kashan Desert and operarion Marlin.

Kashan Desert as you know is very focused on the bunker area, but that area even if it is the gig of the game, is the least important one. For everything around it is at play to acquire it.
And so there are the mountains on the East that have an overlook on the whole area. This is the place both teams are going to want in order to control the area, surpress and cover inf in the bunkers.
If both teams understand this well, there will be this thing that will happen that the main fight will no longer be in the bunkers where the flags are, but in the mountains. And in most scenarios you usually have 2 inf squads fighting in the mountains paying less and less attention on the flags. So this example illustrates that battles don't only have one focus on flags and that there are other aspects to seize.

Operation Marlin will go in more depth of why there are actually key areas on maps that have a depth over the resolve of the game.
I am going to illustrate the importance of district hill and UN outpost and why they still count in play even if they aren't in play as flags.

UN outpost has very good eyes on the palace and of the south of the city. It can even get eyes on the radio tower. So it is a very interesting area for MEC to control, not so for french.
This flag can either be a 2cnd cap or a third for the french. The thing is, is that if MEC can seize it the whole attention of the batle will be turned over there. Forcing the french to drawback, and the MEC will have the advantage.
If the flag is not in play MEC forces can still go there and provide a large foothold for forces to attack from the South and they can supress Palace and keep defenders there.

District Hill gives the same kind of advantage as UN outpost, exept that it is harder to defend and is 2cnd capable MEC flag. French forces will want to seize this end game to make ez victory, but they can also seize it after it is capped cause MEC don't have much to stay there unless they want to ambush and disrupt a northen french attack. ( there are positions that are way better for that )
If the french can take control of this area, they will have an easy access to the east part of the city, and will be overall in a position that will cut off MEC reinforcements. This area will be key even if it won't be directly on the frontlines and is an endgame flag.

All these areas, the mountains, district hill and un outpost can become obstacles, and they show off the importance of terrain in this game.
I hope I have made myself understood under this explanation, and that you agree that terrain really is important in this game.

Even though on a competitive game like you seem to think, that the most perfectly organised deployements direcly constitute the games frontline, I would like to say that you can also fight for the frontline you want or deploy less further away to your advantage. If you limit your deployement to game mechanics and flag layout, you will suffer the battlefield and not take advantage of it, as much as a shitty driver suffers the road.

Pink_Panther
November 25th, 2017, 03:29 PM
Hey Michal_Denmark and Pink_Panther I invite you both to play the actual game! Actually playing the game would give some great insight why certain things work or not. Man clicking M1 more accurately than other guy might not be that deep in every situation.

Mr.Friado, I advise you to speak less about things you ignore, you would find yourself easely confused and ridiculed.

fecht_niko
November 25th, 2017, 04:04 PM
PR isnt about kills and flags and tickets,the only important part is teamwork and communication!

Who doesnt like to hear in mumble:
-This is 6 we need supressive fire. Over.
-We have heavy contacts, need EVAC. Over.

L4gi
November 26th, 2017, 09:44 AM
PR isnt about kills and flags and tickets,the only important part is teamwork and communication!

I read this and almost had a heart attack. Then I noticed who wrote it. ;)

Michael_Denmark
November 26th, 2017, 01:40 PM
Hey Michal_Denmark and Pink_Panther I invite you both to play the actual game! Actually playing the game would give some great insight why certain things work or not. Man clicking M1 more accurately than other guy might not be that deep in every situation.

Friado, you are spot on. I apologies if I sound like I know how everything works in the game. Clearly I do not. Last time I played PR, was in, I think 2013-14? Thus, far too long for me to follow all the new changes. However, I do follow the debate in the PR Forums and watch in game videos plus tutorials too. So completely outdated I am not.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it should still be possible to construct razorwire and foxholes / sandbags, plus of course Anti-Air and Anti-Tank. Mines and charges can still be placed in reasonable numbers. Hence, the obstacles available, for tunneling in an attacker, to a kill zone, should be doable.

The fluid C13-battles, in the contested flag zones, are the reason for my question. Because, perhaps an obstacle system, could make it easier, for both the defending and attacking side, to control this highly intense and fluid dynamic?

If my question seems irrelevant, due to any lack of insight on my part, please accept my apology. However, if seen relevant, I wanted to put light on two guides I had forgot about. They are both made by RAWSwampFox:


FOBS - The Most Important Facet of the Game PR
http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f10-pr-bf2-general-discussion/135589-fobs-most-important-facet-game-pr.html
PR Statistics / Useless Information
http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f10-pr-bf2-general-discussion/130240-pr-statistics-useless-information.html


They are not directly related to constructing obstacles, but they do still contain useful information, I think.

Merchant
November 26th, 2017, 05:09 PM
However, if seen relevant, I wanted to put light on two guides I had forgot about. They are both made by RAWSwampFox:


FOBS - The Most Important Facet of the Game PR
http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f10-pr-bf2-general-discussion/135589-fobs-most-important-facet-game-pr.html
PR Statistics / Useless Information
http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f10-pr-bf2-general-discussion/130240-pr-statistics-useless-information.html


They are not directly related to constructing obstacles, but they do still contain useful information, I think.


That second link you provided Micheal, I've collated into one document, and categorized the information as much as possible, I believe this makes the information easier to make use of:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gOzyxqcPQJitAFGQKqRTdxnOYKSzkk2S8YfvMltJk18/edit?usp=sharing

I'm going to have to look through that thread to see if there might not be a few posts missing, as the last posts that I added to my document might be 6 mos. to 1 yr. before the last posts... there's probably very little missing, however.

parch
November 27th, 2017, 04:40 PM
So completely outdated I am not.

https://i.imgur.com/7UggQfX.jpg?3

Michael_Denmark
November 28th, 2017, 01:01 PM
Nope, they aren't.

They aren't, OK.

I just watched the replay again, from the Flag Zone fighting, and it is clear as day that VOG has learned to 1) keep the initiative, 2) change its direction of attacks and 3) attack in force.

RAWSwampFox writes as follows in his FOB guide on page 3:

...Since you can build 100 roadblocks or razorwire emplacements, build as many as possible. This also allows you to provide focused defense of an objective by forcing enemy traffic into a certain patterns that maximize your assets. When placing razorwire, make sure to have a combat engineer wrench these. They can build one of these within 20 seconds versus 40+ seconds with shovels.

If this information is not outdated, then that is close to three razor wire sections, per minute, per combat engineer. Not saying I am sure how many of these needed to be constructed in a flag zone like the one on Nuijamaa, covering at least one of its sides, but it should be doable to strengthen a defense like the one RPX made use of, against those agressive assaults from VOG.

That second link you provided Micheal, I've collated into one document, and categorized the information as much as possible, I believe this makes the information easier to make use of.

Thank you for doing this Merchant. Important knowledge. Already reading.

...hmmm Parch
http://funnyartpictures.com/pics-funny-stuff/?images/midsize/classic-popart/vincent-van-gogh-yoda.jpg

Jizzco
November 28th, 2017, 01:36 PM
Fob emplacements just die to mortars the majority of the time, wire in PR is nothing like in real life and the only places you'll cut off are buildings.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

Yrkidding
November 28th, 2017, 07:41 PM
Foxholes, on the other hand, are very useful towards surviving mortars.

Pink_Panther
November 28th, 2017, 07:50 PM
Fob emplacements just die to mortars the majority of the time, wire in PR is nothing like in real life and the only places you'll cut off are buildings.

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

I would prefer mortars shooting static razorwire then static inf.
In such case, I think it is preferable to assign a position that is to get hit by mortars, so you can divert enemies attention, its a sort of reversed crowed control, hum, I mean aggro.

Friado
November 29th, 2017, 01:12 PM
I would prefer mortars shooting static razorwire then static inf.
In such case, I think it is preferable to assign a position that is to get hit by mortars, so you can divert enemies attention, its a sort of reversed crowed control, hum, I mean aggro.

Why would mortars shoot razorwire if they could shoot inf :D

In forest maps you can just easily walk around constructible things.

Pink_Panther
November 29th, 2017, 03:29 PM
Why would mortars shoot razorwire if they could shoot inf :D

In forest maps you can just easily walk around constructible things.

Well, mortars are blind, they shoot where they are told to shoot. If you have a Fob and enemy activity around it, are you going to order the mortars to shoot around the fob, or at the fob ? What is easier to take down ? a FOB or spotted contacts in the rear of a forest ?

Can we predict at what mortars will shoot ? I don't think so, but if you are in a position during the game where your gut instincts tell you something is going to fall on your head, I guess this means that you are a threat, and it is an indicator of the enemies objective, for usually you assault a position after you mortar it.

Now what I said earlier is a general statement that can be applied for anything, not just razorwire. But if deployements end in line formations, everything will become a threat, so what I said will not work.

L4gi
November 29th, 2017, 04:21 PM
Usually you mortar something for kills/finishing people off so you dont need to send anyone in to waste tickets trying to mop up. Are we even playing the same game?

Pink_Panther
November 29th, 2017, 04:53 PM
Usually you mortar something for kills/finishing people off so you dont need to send anyone in to waste tickets trying to mop up. Are we even playing the same game?

I am not sure man, let me use an example.
There was a moment in Xiangshan, where VOG before launching their offensive which was a very tense moment, used 2 full mortar loads and spammed the FOB and hill that was in my west at that moment.
The mortar barrage was useless and killed at best 3 guys of the FOB squad. But in that moment we knew that VOG was coming. And my squad was the first to give in casualties. I even think I got the first kill in what was the first VOG assault of the jungle.

Do I need to use other examples ? Did you play this game ?

L4gi
November 29th, 2017, 06:50 PM
No, never. First time. Just started a month ago.

Cossack
November 30th, 2017, 04:57 AM
No, never. First time. Just started a month ago.

Hmm, I wonder what does badges under your avatar mean... :D

fecht_niko
November 30th, 2017, 05:18 AM
Its hard to say if people are trolling in this thread or never played the game properly