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View Full Version : Ye Ole Ground vs 1st Floor Debate


Portable
October 3rd, 2016, 09:41 PM
1st is ground

Merchant
October 3rd, 2016, 09:59 PM
http://i.imgur.com/1ZipfSK.png
1st is ground

http://i.imgur.com/vbBMEjF.jpg

Merchant
October 3rd, 2016, 10:30 PM
Squad 1 Geronimo calling local: Hey Sq 2, we're down, L-Shape just S of you, enemy in the bldg.

Squad 2 Portable: On the way!

Squad 2 Portable: Ok, we're entering the bldg, which floor are you on?

Squad 1 Geronimo: We're on floor 2, I can see enemy over my body right now.

Squad 2 Portable: Which designation are you using for floor levels, scheme A, B, or C?

Squad 1 Geronimo: We're using our Squad scheme, scheme A.

Squad 2 Portable: Hmmm... is your scheme A the same as ours? What do you call 1st floor? Our scheme A assumes Ground is 1st, one above ground is 2nd, and so on. Our scheme B is Ground, then one above is 2nd floor. Then our C is Ground, and one above is 1st.

Squad 1 Geronimo: No, our A, B, and C schemes are not the same, our A is your C, our B's are the same, and our C is your A.

Squad 2 Portable: Ok, Ok! I'm absorbing that... chill man, it's gelling, almost got it... Oh Damn! We're wiped... hang on, we're gonna respawn and we'll be right back... Whose scheme are we going to use when we get back, your ABC scheme, or ours?


** And so it went on Dragon Fly... is it any wonder this battle lasted 4 hours? **

Cossack
October 3rd, 2016, 10:32 PM
1st is ground

Nope, there is no such thing as ground floor :p

Portable
October 3rd, 2016, 11:24 PM
I'm in a five story hotel right now. The ground is the first floor. Should I go find the facility manager and ask him to change all the signs?

Onil
October 3rd, 2016, 11:26 PM
Nope, there is no such thing as ground floor :p

What are you on about?

The best way to avoid confusion is this:

Ground Floor followed by Ground+1, Ground+2, etc

Just like

Top Floor followed by Top+1, Top+2, etc

that way no matter what number you think ground floor represents, it's always correct.

Vista
October 3rd, 2016, 11:28 PM
Rooftop
Top floor
Floor below top
...

Ground floor

Best way to not confuse this

Chip0_IT
October 3rd, 2016, 11:50 PM
ah, that old, confusing debate ;)

we had 5 pages of that here: http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f10-pr-bf2-general-discussion/134850-first-floor-bottom-floor.html

Merchant
October 4th, 2016, 12:06 AM
I'm in a five story hotel right now. The ground is the first floor. Should I go find the facility manager and ask him to change all the signs?

Hehe... Americans... just joking with you Portable... but here in Canada, our elevators have a G floor, then a 1 floor, followed by a 2 floor, and so on.

Ground is Ground! Sheesh! :)

After Ground should come 1st, then 2nd, and so on... but now some might want to call the floor just above Ground as 2nd, instead of 1st, so now that's two possibilities right here, and then there's a third possibility with your system of Ground being called 1st... so too many ways for people to get all messed up, misunderstanding each other, and messing up the assault by running up one floor too many, as an example.

So with that in mind, Ground is Ground... surely no one can be confused as to which floor is the ground floor... surely!

Thus, as Geronimo rightly stated, telling your team-mate that you're on "Ground +2" should not be confusing to anyone, this should be perfectly clear.

By the same token, "Roof -1" will clearly explain that you're on the top floor, just below the roof.


So "Ground" and "Roof" as solid reference points should be a good place to start?

As I mentioned above in another post, I would hesitate to use "Top floor -2", because it's possible that someone might interpret "Top floor" to be the roof floor, but I really don't think that anyone is going to mistake "Roof" as being the floor just below the roof... so "Roof -1" should be unmistakable.

I hope that each team's Commander will address to each of his Squad Leaders which system he expects his team to use, so that each SL can make certain that all of his Grunts are on the same page as the SL. Then the whole team should be consistent, and no in-battle misunderstandings on this issue should occur. :p

Merchant
October 4th, 2016, 12:44 AM
As Chip0_IT mentioned, there is already a thread regarding this issue here: http://www.realitymod.com/forum/f10-pr-bf2-general-discussion/134850-first-floor-bottom-floor.html

But as you can see from this thread, this issue is FAR FROM RESOLVED, and there is no shortage of people who have a variety of different methods to explain a building's level, so the need for a standardized method of relaying building level information to your team mates is sorely needed to prevent mixups during the tournament battles.

It should be reasonably easy for the tournament Commanders to adopt a particular method of identifying these building levels and to make certain that everyone on their team is on board.

Portable
October 4th, 2016, 01:31 AM
My 33 years on this earth have thought me I will fuck this up.

Stark38
October 4th, 2016, 02:32 AM
This thread triggers me as an American.

In a numerical system of 1-xx, why does it start with G!!!!???

Portable
October 4th, 2016, 02:36 AM
Its like we won two wars for nothing. ungrateful Europeans.

Yrkidding
October 4th, 2016, 03:01 AM
Both apartment buildings I've lived in in Toronto go "Ground, 2, 3," etc. Merchant so maybe even Canada isn't uniform in this one lol My philosophy has always been; What does the term "First Floor" literally imply? Well we have a word for floors that are underground so it's not that, it must be the first floor above the literal dirt and earth, which is at ground-level and is the first floor of the building that isn't the basement levels. Therefore the meaning of "Ground Floor" and "1st floor" are the same and can be used interchangeably and the next floor above Ground/1st is the 2nd floor as it is literally the 2nd literal constructed floor above the dirt and earth below.

Another argument for this is thinking in stories. A two-storey house has 2 floors. It's a little weird to call the 2nd storey the 1st floor. Keeping the floor number the same as the storey number makes sense there too.

Outside of that, ground plus and roof minus are decent systems for most maps, until you get to the bigger T's but often the combat in those buildings is occurring in the top few floors or the bottom few floors anyways so it's not usually a problem. Still, it's something I'll set a standard for with my SLs at some point

Merchant
October 4th, 2016, 04:11 AM
Both apartment buildings I've lived in in Toronto go "Ground, 2, 3," etc. Merchant so maybe even Canada isn't uniform in this one lol My philosophy has always been; What does the term "First Floor" literally imply? Well we have a word for floors that are underground so it's not that, it must be the first floor above the literal dirt and earth, which is at ground-level and is the first floor of the building that isn't the basement levels. Therefore the meaning of "Ground Floor" and "1st floor" are the same and can be used interchangeably and the next floor above Ground/1st is the 2nd floor as it is literally the 2nd literal constructed floor above the dirt and earth below.

Another argument for this is thinking in stories. A two-storey house has 2 floors. It's a little weird to call the 2nd storey the 1st floor. Keeping the floor number the same as the storey number makes sense there too.

Outside of that, ground plus and roof minus are decent systems for most maps, until you get to the bigger T's but often the combat in those buildings is occurring in the top few floors or the bottom few floors anyways so it's not usually a problem. Still, it's something I'll set a standard for with my SLs at some point


Well, your arguments above are well founded and very rational, but since there are different ways of looking at what "1st Floor" implies (and apparently even here in Canada this isn't really clear, since you have elevators with G, and then 2nd, while I, living almost literally next door, have elevators marked with G, and then 1st... so this "1st Floor, 2nd Floor" thing is always in flux, never consistent it seems).

Given that we can't even get that straight in one country, and even less so in one continent, perhaps the "Ground +1, Ground +2, etc.", and "Roof -1, Roof -2, etc." system is the only foolproof one that everyone can understand and that everyone can hardly misunderstand.

As for middle floors, like you said, and as I said before, if you can manage to keep count that you've climbed up to the 6th floor of a 10-floor building (e.g. Beirut T-Shape, or Muttrah Crooked Ts), or if you can look out of the window and count the floors to determine that you are on the 6th level, then you can easily just say "I'm on Ground +5", can't you now?

I think that most people, from experience having been shot up on some of those tall building middle floors, would have to admit that as they've lain there wounded, looking up at the ceiling above them, couldn't remember if they were on the 4th, 5th, 6th, or 7th floor... most people, I say... when they were on one of those middle floors, they were usually just in transition to the upper floor and didn't remember which floor they were on before getting wounded anyway.

***

So "Ground + 1 to 3", or "Roof -1 to 3" is all you'll ever really be dealing with, and how much simpler can it get?

And with this naming system, who could ever get it wrong and end up on the wrong floor???

Merchant
October 4th, 2016, 04:17 AM
This thread triggers me as an American.

In a numerical system of 1-xx, why does it start with G!!!!???


I'd say that the reason is simply that "Ground" is unambiguous.

If someone says "Ground level", you visualize the street level of the building, and never the floor just above the street level.

But then, I'm not American, so not sure I'm equipped to visualize what pictures might pop in your heads when certain words are uttered.

I'll leave it to you guys to paint me a picture, rather than try to assume for you.

***

Although, from experience listening to conversations on Mumble Local Chat in between rounds on Pub servers, it seems fairly consistent that for most younger males of nearly any nationality, most any spoken word of the English vocabulary appears to conjure up for them mental images of phalluses, since nearly anything spoken in between rounds always elicits some sort of Penis responses... which is why I have a quick-mute key setup on my keyboard in order to kill between-round chatter on the Pub servers. **Sigh!**

Cossack
October 4th, 2016, 06:24 AM
In my country there is no such thing as ground floor. Basement, then 1st, then 2nd etc. Even in language, there is no such term.

Elusif
October 4th, 2016, 07:06 AM
Onil;360691']What are you on about?

The best way to avoid confusion is this:

Ground Floor followed by Ground+1, Ground+2, etc

Just like

Top Floor followed by Top+1, Top+2, etc

that way no matter what number you think ground floor represents, it's always correct.

wow, I cant believe I didn't think of this. I'm totally switching to that.

Senshi
October 4th, 2016, 08:16 AM
This thread triggers me as an American.

In a numerical system of 1-xx, why does it start with G!!!!???

You also still use the imperial system and fuck up the way to write dates, so it's understandable you have difficulties with grasping sensible naming conventions :p .

"Ground plus x"
and "roof - minus x" seem the most sensible to me for a tournament environment. Then again, I know that some will think "ground floor" to be the cellar...:rolleyes: .

Raidonrai
October 4th, 2016, 09:12 AM
G -> 1st -> 2nd etc.

Death to america

Chip0_IT
October 4th, 2016, 09:46 AM
Are we really discussing it ... again? LoL !

http://www.learnbritishenglish.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/BrE-Vs-Ame-Building-Floors.jpg

so British Commonwealth, western EU and almost all Latin-american countries use G-1st-2nd; it's ingrained deep in our brains: Ex. Did you use one flight of stairs? Yes=1st floor / No=Ground floor

US and Eastern EU use 1st-2nd-3rd; in some languages, they don't even have the word "ground"

it's a very interesting anthropological discussion but we have to set a useful standard

as others said, we could use the euro-centric one:

ground+1, +2, +3
roof-1, -2, -3

Aleon
October 4th, 2016, 12:35 PM
You guys are missing the point, merchant has the right idea. I care little about how your village, country or your continent calls these floors. Using ground+n is the way to call things because it's unambiguous. The whole reason why you can't use just numbers, is because there are different ways to use them already. Therefore someone will misunderstand you regardless of what you mean. You absolutely have to specify a floor (reasonably the one that is street level) that is fixed, and is never identified with a number. Anything below is -n anything above is +n. If you don't like the name "ground floor" call it just "street-level". The name doesn't matter as long as it's not a number because our languages make the numbers thing confusing.

Senshi
October 4th, 2016, 12:43 PM
Real solution: Become president of the USA, enforce the metric system and standardize the way floor levels are called. With yearly mandatory tests to ensure everyone gets it.

Raidonrai
October 4th, 2016, 01:04 PM
Senshi;360715']Real solution: Become president of the USA, enforce the metric system and standardize the way floor levels are called. With yearly mandatory tests to ensure everyone gets it.

Trump 2016

mectus11
October 4th, 2016, 01:20 PM
Trump 2016

make america a colony again.

Murkey
October 4th, 2016, 01:30 PM
I didn't read all the posts as I know the truth. Assuming you enter a building from street level - congratulations! You're on the ground floor. After that 1st, 2nd etc. I will fight any man that disagrees.

But seriously, in game if it's important, I say the floor number as outlined above, then ground based, then how many from the top.

i.e. "Hi medic I'm on the 2nd floor, ground plus 2, just below the roof"

It's takes longer to say, but no as long as when the medic is a floor below you counting on his fingers.

Cheers, Murkey.

Merchant
October 4th, 2016, 01:47 PM
Senshi;360715']Real solution: Become president of the USA, enforce the metric system and standardize the way floor levels are called. With yearly mandatory tests to ensure everyone gets it.

Trump 2016

Senshi for life! For the sake of common sense!

Jarhead
October 4th, 2016, 05:32 PM
Can we add a poll to that?
I really would like to see how many people use the british / american version

+1 for British btw ;)

Portable
October 5th, 2016, 04:14 AM
In my country there is no such thing as ground floor. Basement, then 1st, then 2nd etc. Even in language, there is no such term.



I Soviet Latvia the ground is hot lava

Elusif
October 5th, 2016, 08:13 AM
I brought this up with my clan and now our discord is in meltdown over it D:

LimitJK
October 5th, 2016, 09:46 AM
ground+n system is basically the european system. so im ok that we settle with that superior version.

Mouthpiece
October 5th, 2016, 01:05 PM
ground+n system is basically the european system. so im ok that we settle with that superior version.

*Western European. Don't forget about the other Europes - Central and Eastern. As said, ground floor in Latvia (E-Europe) is lava, 2nd floor is lava + 1.

Danger_6
October 6th, 2016, 07:04 AM
How about we just live in bungalows.

In all seriousness, it is ground floor followed by first floor.

Cossack
October 6th, 2016, 07:45 AM
In all seriousness, it is ground floor followed by first floor.

In all seriousness, there no such thing as ground floor.

SgtTetgmeyer
October 6th, 2016, 09:05 AM
This is why we can't have nice things.

hugger
October 6th, 2016, 10:14 AM
In all seriousness, nobody ever has a problem with this in PR except 'mericans.

(And in Slovakia, we even have two words for "floors". One primarily used in construction counts everything above ground as +1,2... The other one counts ceilings above ground floor, so it's ground, 1st,2nd...)

Geronimo
October 6th, 2016, 11:51 AM
This is why we can't have nice things.Everything ever in PDI.

jamil_123456
October 6th, 2016, 12:51 PM
Omg we are never going to conclude what is ground floor. Id call it first floor cuz it makes sense.

Merchant
October 7th, 2016, 07:53 PM
Omg we are never going to conclude what is ground floor. Id call it first floor cuz it makes sense.

Bloody Hell!, let's stop using numbers to designate specific building levels, shall we, this thread proves very definitively that it's a persistent issue, that confusion and misunderstandings are inevitable if anyone uses numbers to identify levels.

There are only two definite, unmistakable levels: Ground (or Street), and Roof (not ceiling!).

I think we can all say for certain that no one is going to be confused by what is meant by Roof level, or Ground, or Street level.

http://i.imgur.com/XmQCvuK.jpg

How could it be any clearer than this?

As a Medic, I've too often run throughout the South side of a T-Shape building looking for the corpse of a team-mate who was a floor above, or a floor below where I was looking for him, 'cause of these kinds of level-description errors.

Sure, when I didn't see him on that floor, I ran up the next floor, or ran down the next floor and found him... sure, np, but then what kind of fuckup is that??? Wasted time, giving the enemy unnecessary advantage, possibly, and also the Medic being unnecessarily exposed in the stairwell and possibly shot up a second time, all because of this kind of lack of naming convention standard?

Not acceptable... shouldn't happen.

Cossack
October 8th, 2016, 03:42 PM
Because 'murica is doing it wrong. 5 storey building has four floors. That does not makes sense.

Senshi
October 8th, 2016, 06:02 PM
Think of it like a programmer:

floors = [0,1,2,3,4]
floors.length = 5

Problem solved. Makes even more sense when there's underground floors :) .

MobiusOne
October 21st, 2016, 07:57 PM
But seriously though, it doesn't matter what you use for floor designation as long as the rest of the team has it standardized.

The point is to communicate information as effectively/efficiently as possible. Communication can occur in different languages as long as both parties agree upon which language to use.

Merchant
October 22nd, 2016, 12:04 AM
But seriously though, it doesn't matter what you use for floor designation as long as the rest of the team has it standardized.

The point is to communicate information as effectively/efficiently as possible. Communication can occur in different languages as long as both parties agree upon which language to use.

Right. That is the whole purpose of this thread, this is exactly what I hoped to bring about as a result of this discussion: a standard.

As I've stated earlier in this thread, even in this damned city here, some elevators will have a G floor, and then a 2nd floor, but other elevators will have a G floor, followed by a 1st floor.

Reading the whole thread, you'll notice that there are at least three different ways that people participating in this tournament visualize and believe a floor numbering scheme works, or should work. There is no consistency; there is no standard.

When a Medic is told that a revive is needed on the second floor of a building, and he runs up to the wrong floor, or 'nades are thrown into the wrong floors, the result(s) can be many critical tickets lost (Medic getting shot in the stairs unnecessarily, 'nades thrown into "friendly" rooms, lost critical time, clusterf*cks, etc.).

Simple things like this lack of consistent, standard terminology should not be an issue in a tournament environment such as this one, which is why it's important that there be only one method/convention/standard that everyone on the same team uses and understands... ONLY ONE.

Seriously, that is what this post is all about.

phlupple
October 22nd, 2016, 02:44 PM
I don't know if this has already been suggested, but how about we run a poll and the winner simply becomes the standard?

In my country we use ground > 1st, but I will adapt to a new standard for the purposes of this tournament if it's established with a fair vote.

Merchant's unambiguous 'Ground+1' system is also something I would have no problem working with.

Onil
October 22nd, 2016, 02:48 PM
There is no point in making a poll simply because if you use any of the basic systems and someone makes a mistake, the information is incorrect and no-one notices. While with "Ground +1" If someone makes a mistake and says 1st Floor, everyone else notices that it's incorrect.

Senshi
October 22nd, 2016, 06:48 PM
Why is this still being discussed. It was concluded back on page 2...

Filamu
October 22nd, 2016, 08:59 PM
Cause people dont agree?

Soban
November 21st, 2016, 04:20 PM
http://i65.tinypic.com/vigv9s.jpg

PROBLEM SOLVED ?

AlonTavor
November 21st, 2016, 04:23 PM
No.

Ground - first - second - third - .... - top - roof

Jizzco
November 21st, 2016, 04:23 PM
Dick stuck in pottatoe, instructions not clear

Sent from my Moto G (4) using Tapatalk

Vista
November 21st, 2016, 04:35 PM
No.

Ground - first - second - third - .... - top - roof

This.

Murkey
November 21st, 2016, 05:40 PM
http://i65.tinypic.com/vigv9s.jpg




Let the 'tatoes hit the floor
Let the 'tatoes hit the floor
Let the 'tatoes hit the floor
Let the 'tatoes hit the FLOOOOOR!

Cheers, Murkey.

Mouthpiece
November 21st, 2016, 08:05 PM
http://i.imgur.com/d3SbU21.jpg

PROBLEM SOLVED INDEED.

Soban
November 21st, 2016, 08:37 PM
i think it's an universal paradox we cannot solve this problem it's unsolvable.

its time for a walk... need to think of meeeeaaaning of life and stuff...

http://i65.tinypic.com/29posiu.png

Merchant
November 22nd, 2016, 06:00 AM
Found the photo of the Quartz building elevator buttons.

These are the floors at the condo bldg I live at:

http://i.imgur.com/GXn3ala.jpg

Here we have Lobby (or Ground), then just above ground is Floor 1, then Floor 2, etc.

This is in Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

*****

This is a picture of the floors at one of the Quartz buildings I worked at less than a year ago:

http://i.imgur.com/8svDS7a.jpg

Here we have Ground (or Lobby), then just above ground is Floor 2, then Floor 3, etc. This is again, in the same city of Toronto, Ontario, Canada.

Notice anything else peculiar about these floors? Look carefully.


So as you can see from these photos, some ppl start with the Ground floor as the 1st floor, meaning that the floor just above ground is going to be the 2nd floor, while others count the ground floor as Ground, then from just above Ground starts the 1st floor, and so on.

Seeing as there are so many varied methods or opinions, the only sensible method comes back to this one, which is the most unambiguous method:

http://i.imgur.com/XmQCvuK.jpg

Cossack
November 22nd, 2016, 06:30 AM
Sorry, never heard of this ground floor. First floor is first floor.

mectus11
November 22nd, 2016, 07:24 AM
I think we can all reach a collective consensus that Vista is right and you're all wrong.

Murkey
November 22nd, 2016, 08:55 AM
On the ground floor, the floor is the ground.

In a flour mill, the floor is ground flour.

Flour mills run the risk of fire and explosion.

QED. All the best for the future, Dr Murkey.

Merchant
November 23rd, 2016, 05:07 AM
No one's noticed what's odd/unusual about the Quartz Tower buttons (not the P1A)?

http://i.imgur.com/8svDS7a.jpg

octo-crab
November 23rd, 2016, 07:05 AM
No 13 or 14 on that one. Pretty standard ffor them to skip 13, but 14 is odd. Most the buildings I've been in skip 13, granted most 13+ story buildings I've been in are in Vegas

On second look, they are missing like 5 floors, stupid canucks.

Cossack
November 23rd, 2016, 08:19 AM
Maybe NSA having a good time in there.

happy_google
November 23rd, 2016, 08:40 AM
First second third etc.

truth_hun
November 23rd, 2016, 11:24 AM
All (x)fourth floors are missing (4, 14, 24, 34, 44). Why?

BaCaTA
November 23rd, 2016, 01:18 PM
All (x)fourth floors are missing (4, 14, 24, 34, 44). Why?

At first I was like "it's just Chinese superstitions" then checked wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraphobia#In_Canada)

Yrkidding
November 23rd, 2016, 01:42 PM
No 13th floor is very common in Canada, don't know what the hell is up with skipping 42-47 though.

Onil
November 23rd, 2016, 03:51 PM
There's no 4,14,24,34,44 besides the 13... weird stuff

Merchant
November 23rd, 2016, 05:51 PM
At first I was like "it's just Chinese superstitions" then checked wiki (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetraphobia#In_Canada)


BaCaTA is all over this one, check his wiki link.

Totonto has a large East Asian population, if they kept the 4s, they might have sat on a bunch of these condos for a while.

Funny how they're still Ok with the 4s in the 40s (except for 44), so seems the rationale was that a number ending in 4 was the problem.

The fear of the number 13, resulting in having to avoid it on elevator buttons is every bit as strange. Would you avoid buying a condo on the 14th floor 'cause you know that even though it's labelled as 13, it's in reality the 13th floor?

Hmmm... then again, what if the Ground +1 floor was labelled as Floor 1... hmmm... wait... which floor "really" is the 13th floor??? I guess the one the people with all the bad luck are living on... yeah, you just have to observe the residents to figure out which floor is the "real" 13th floor.

It's a funny world we live in. :)

Master_B
November 23rd, 2016, 11:12 PM
Lets twist our heads one more time. This is funny:)
This is from Swedish instructions of how to number apartments in multi apartment building.

They use a 4 digit number and start with 1001 and count the apartment on the same floor from left to right. The picture show how and if there Is a cellar it counts as 0901.

http://imgur.com/iIMTGKn

so here is the kick. The floor on the “ground” is 10 and the floor above is 11

A nice variation is to say one floor up. What is that now, let me think first floor or second floor.
It doesn't matter. One floor up is one floor up from where you are or ground

Source:
http://media.archileaks.se/files/121/Lantm%C3%A4teriet%20numrering_flerbostad_090303.pd f

Merchant
November 25th, 2016, 05:52 AM
I like that system, actually.

Seems that from the main entrance they number in a clockwise direction. There must be some architectural layouts where there could be two different ways of numbering... would be interesting to see how they would resolve these.